David Bowie -big deal

He was his generation's Lady Gaga.

Lady gaga isn't important enough to have a "generation" darling.

Gaga has had her 15 minutes of 'fame'. Next.

I'd say "Nice try, OP" but it wasn't.

I agree it's enough. He was daring and different which is good. He wasn't a good singer and he was also a pedo during the 70s.

" He wasn't a good singer and he was also a pedo during the 70s. "

Fucking 13 year old groupies, as wrong as it is does not make him a "pedo". Look up the definition of the word.

Wasn't Jimmy Page into the young ones too as well as BDSM? Made Bowie look like a monk.

R6, I read that she was 15 if it makes a difference to you.

Lori Mattix says she lost her virginity to David Bowie? Why don't I believe that? Hmmmm

His songs from the 1970s are a big deal, even today, even if his persona was dated.

Gaga has relevance due to artists like David Bowie. AHS, has numerous overtones from the movie The Hunger, which Bowie was brilliant in.

She was 15 and I doubt she was carded. Underage groupies were a thing--Linda Blair was openly living with Rick Springfield at 15; Melanie Griffith was 14 when she started dating 22-year-old Don Johnson. It met with a raised eyebrow, but no one thought of it as pedophilia--which refers to a sexual attraction to preadolescents. At the time, the *average* age of marriage for an Indian girl was 14. The idea that 18 is some sort of magical age as far as sex is concerned is very recent.

Don't try and justify it r12..it was still fucked up and they all knew it

No, they didn't all know it. It was a very different time period--one where there was a notion that teens should be treated as more adult than they are now--this was the period when the voting age was lowered from 21 to 18 as was the drinking age in a number of states.

Asking a drugged-out rock star to somehow have desisted from what was common and accepted behavior at the time shows how little sense of historical context people have.

Bowie's serious relationships all seemed to have been age-appropriate--so calling him a pedo because some ex-groupie claims to have had sex with him 40 years ago is pointless concern-trolling IMO.

stop it r14 we knew it was wrong then and now. Just stop it and he's probably admit the same

I think [R15] that views have changed--and I expect Bowie's did, but I won't buy "we knew it was wrong then"--it was considered a bit outre, but hardly the big sin that it is now--otherwise, the pairings wouldn't have been so public.

And, yes, I was around at the time--one of my fellow students slept with a rock star (low-ranked one). Her complaint wasn't that he slept with an underage teen-aged girl, but that he didn't "wear a rubber."

The movie Almost Famous gets the groupie thing pretty right as does Pamela des Barres autobiography I'm with the Band.

AIDS did change things--a lot. "

r16 I'm about the most liberal person there is but it's an extremely hard case to that it was ok a rock star using his power to bang 15 year olds at the time. It's actually why he had to go away since it was found out.

[R17] "Had to go away"? What are you talking about? Bowie was already terminally ill when Mattix came out with her story. He already hadn't given an interview in years. He hadn't performed in public for eight or nine years. I doubt he was paying much attention since he was trying to get out his last album while he was still alive.

So you're "liberal"--that doesn't mean you get what the norms were for rock star behavior in 1974. All you're showing is a sort of generational narcissism--things couldn't have been *that* different. Oh yes they could. And they were.

And Bowie (and Jagger and Don Henley, etc.) didn't have to use their power to get these girls--the girls were coming to them--literally trying to get backstage in hopes of meeting (and banging) their idol. The girls bragged about it--I had another friend who was considered a bit pathetic because she claimed to have slept with Gene Simmons of Kiss and we all knew she was lying. (And Gene Simmons--yuck.)

Bowie who was massively coked out during that period, probably wouldn't have remembered or known the ages of most of the people he slept with. That was the life of a rock star.

Damn, I can't believe I have to explain the facts of rock life on DL.

what i mean by had to go away was back in the 80s. He was all hot and all and then he was just shut down real quick in the industry. It's exactly because of the teen affairs. the execs just were not going to deal with that. It's not some big secret about what happened.

r18 what i can't belive is you think this is all ok. Bad shit happened it's really that simple. There is no getting around that.

That behaviour goes all the way back to Jerry Lee Lewis. I'd say it was par for the course regarding some Rock stars.

Groupie culture was completely different and you're ignorant if you argue otherwise. These are fully developed teenagers, with women's bodies, and yeah they were underage and it's sketchy but it's by NO MEANS pedophilia. Pedophilia is abhorrent, ruining the innocence of a pure child, who has the body of a child, no sex drive. Teenagers are horny. Like hello, you were a teenager once. Teenage girls are as horny as the boys.

Not sure, but I don't think Bowie was one of the great misogynists in rock like Jagger & co. Iman was only about 9 years younger (assuming she isn't lying about her age). Bowie never turned into the ridiculous 60 year old with a 20 year old "girlfriend".

It may have been accepted behavior among rock stars and groupies, but not to the public. Legally, it was statutory rape.

Here we go again r22. Just because you have a horny 15 year old on your hands doesn't make it right. The adult in the situation has to act like one and that your on drugs is no excuse for not owning the responsibility as an adult. These were not love affairs these were situations of banging it because you can. There was a very obvious power imbalance both in terms of age and being the superstar at the time that made it easy to manipulate the situation.

R25, it's problematic, but it's not pedophilia. That's the point I'm making.

[R20] It's not a question of what I consider "okay"--it's that I was around at the time and knew how that behavior was viewed. No one would ever have termed it "pedophilia"--which refers to an attraction to preadolescent children, not teenagers.

Teen girls and older men, if anything, have been the norm through most of human history--girls were married off post-puberty to men who were able to support them economically. To term this kind of sexual pairing as pedophile in nature is just off.

[R19]Bowie didn't disappear in the 80s--his popular career peaked in the early eighties with Modern Love and then his later records didn't sell as well and he became less high-profile, but he continued to tour, make recordings and act. He didn't "go away" until he had a heart attack on stage around 2004. At which point, he'd been married to Iman for years. Because even if it had come out that he'd slept with a 15-year-old in 1972, no one would have cared.

Fuck, you're really just making stuff up now.

the only people who are traumatized by this are people with low intelligence. anyone who is fully developed and smart isn't going to be traumatized by it. they'll know that they were smart enough to consents I mean, I look back at my 14-16 teen self and while I wasn't brilliant, I was smart and certainly more well cultured than the average American kid- god bless my Manhattan upbringing.

I had a typo in there with consent, putting an "s" instead of a period. I am aware of this. no wise ass comments necessary.

Leave it to DL posters to defend adult men who had sex with underage kids. OK it wasn't pedophilia technically but it most certainly was hebephilia and ephebophilia. They're still wrong. This behavior may have "normal" for hollyweird but it was most certainly not accepted by the public. Most parents in the 70s wouldn't have allowed it. If you listen to or read Lori Maddox' interviews, she even mentions how Jimmy Page asked her mother for permission because he was afraid of the cops finding out. She also mentioned something about 1 of the rock stars she had sex with who was worried about the FBI (might have also been Page). Clearly it was not OK in the eyes of the general public.

Who the fuck is the idiot who is polluting every Bowie thread with this "pedophilia" nonsense, because he fucked a teenage groupie in 1972?

Bitch, you obviously are here to start something and I bet you're not even gay or lesbian. Get the fuck out, you sicko!

Hey spacky, the FBI is not the general public

[quote]He was his generation's Lady Gaga.

LOL, oh my sides. Gaga was a flash in the pan, an imitator, extremely non-dangerous pop starlet even though her 13 year old fans believed she was the greatest creative mind of all time and something truly different. Even with David Bowie's history of stealing from others he still was a true legend and something Gaga can only dream of some day achieving. My guess: she won't. She already sort of blew her chances and revealed what she's really like.

Poker Face vs. Space Oddity. That is the level we're talking here. Guess which will be remembered in 50 years as great song.

[quote] It's exactly because of the teen affairs. the execs just were not going to deal with that.

You're ridiculous. If they could have got another "Let's Dance" out of him, they would have supplied the girls.

R32 is right. The troll is just wandering thread to thread yapping about social changes they don't understand. In the 70s it was widely known that young teen groupies were breaking into hotels to hump their idols. There has never been any suggestion that Bowie was ever a predator. A coked out mess, certainly. Heroin and brandy had their turn but he cleaned himself up and ditched the fuckup Angie, got his life back on track and married Iman. The troll here is the only person I've ever heard a bad word from.

Where did the groupies parents think they were? All the stories seem to say the parents knew the deal and no one was surprised. That's a snapshot of the time, it's not how society is now but it was then.

No one knows Space Oddity.

[quote] Bowie didn't disappear in the 80s--his popular career peaked in the early eighties

Uh, no. He peaked in the 70s. He ended by the early 80s.

I grew up in the 70s but I barely knew Bowie existed. He always seemed very fringe to me. I think of Lady Gaga as much more mainstream--no comparison.

No, his popularity peaked in the 80s--Let's Dance in 1983 was his best-selling album, though his earlier work is preferred by most Bowie fans. Let's Dance had three hit singles that had crossover appeal--the videos had lots of play on MTV. It was David Bowie for people who didn't normally like David Bowie.

R37, as a general rule parents of groupies are dysfunctional people. The 70s was the ear when my older and older sister were teenagers. And kids who had at least somewhat normal parents would not allow their kids to go to a concert unsupervised .And if they did go to concert back then without some supervision, then they went to a concert and lied to their parents where they were going.

When my mother was a teenager in the 50s, Jerry Lee Lewis not only marring his cousin, but a girl who was under age was a big deal back then in the media. It was scandalous and people thought he was rotten.

The poster who said years ago it was no big deal for a young girl to marry a mature man doesn’t know his or her history. People who lived in the 1900s, 1800s, and before married very young. The reason was because the life expectancy was very short. Also, many times females married more mature men because they were finically secure and they were very good providers. It was key for the life of a young girl to marry a good provider to take care of her. Choices for females in history were extremely limited and very rarely they had careers. The prominent choice was to be a wife and have children. It was survival for females in society. However, most of the 20th century and nd now in the 21 century is a different world than 120-150 years ago. People now live much longer, Females are born into a society which they have a vast array of choices in life more than ever before. They can have careers, provide for themselves, and/or contribute finically to their families.

BTW, it is insane to say, well the teenage girl was well developed for her age, and she knew what she was doing which is to bang her idol. Scientists have found out that the human brain doesn’t fully develop to a level of an adult until the age of 25 years old. They can’t comprehend things intellectually and make mature adult choices when they are teenagers. Therefore, a teenager having sex with an adult is rape.

If an adult male had sex with a teenager male, you can bet your ass it would be considered much more disturbing than an adult male having sex with a teenage girl. Between the two, an underage girl isn’t as alarming, which is very disturbing and sad.

R42 preach it. There's still a lot of sexism going around unfortunately.

You cannot compare David Bowie to Lady Gaga. They are not on the same level. Sorry...

No, OP, Bowie had talent, one could say musical genius.

OP is right. Bowie was a big deal as a musician and performer.

How nice of OP to start yet another Bowie thread celebrating his life and monumental achievements.

I couldn't real the whole thread, but is someone seriously defending pedophilia on here? Disturbing.

You son of bitch, OP. How dare you.

[quote]I couldn't real the whole thread, but is someone seriously defending pedophilia on here? Disturbing.

I don't think people are defending pedophilia, R47. However, you've got to put shit into context. It was the 1970s, and you can't really apply current morality and standards to behavior from 40 years ago. It's pointless.

I like lady gaga. The truth is I did not know what to make of her for a long time but she eventually grew on me.

She was in her 20's when she made those songs so give her s break if they weren't all perfect

I agree there is something pretentious and off about her but I think she's just bipolar.

One thing is undeniable, she chose to be famous. She demonstrates that pretty much anybody can become famous if they want it bad enough.

It's like she decided to put a lamp shade on her head and go clubbing one day and then never went home.

R47 That particular poster isn't defending it. In fact he says it's not right.

What he IS saying is fucking a teen isn't paedophilia. Paedophilia is sexual attraction to pre-pubescent undeveloped children.

Bowie is probably guilty of haebophilia.

But the poster isn't defending Bowie - he's pointing out that Bowie isn't a paedophile.

Most of the rock stars were not that old themselves. I was born in 1950 and grew up as a teenager in the sixties. The prevailing attitude was that girls were emotionally older than boys the same age. Most rock stars were in their early twenties and it was pretty normal for a 16 year old girls to date guys over 18. At 16 I had a boyfriend who was 21 and I was much more mature than he was. People didn't make a big deal out of a few years here and there. Bowie was only 19 1972 The girl probably looked older and he was probably stoned off his ass and didn't think to ask for ID. Hardly a big scandal. It was a different time.

There are a lot of 13/14 year old sluts out there, male and female. God knows I would have been passing it out at that age if I'd had the opportunity.

Years ago Bowie securitized his assets. For people who don't know, that means he sold all his income from his music and other ventures to investors. They paid him a lump sum, and they got in return securities entitling them to a share of his earnings. (I'm not sure how they worked his ventures after the securitization -- maybe there was an option for him to sell earnings from future projects into the trust as well, or maybe he just kept them.)

They must be rubbing their hands with glee right now! I'm sure sales of his records are way up.

(Then again, maybe not. The sale of his assets happened before the digital download music revolution and so Bowie may have made out like a bandit by selling future income streams that turned into trickles.)

Ok just looked it up -- it was royalty rights to his albums before 1990.

R51 doesn't know simple math. Bowie was born in 1947, making him 25 in 1972, not 19. He was in his 20s and 30s during the 70s fucking at least 2 girls who were under 16...no defense of that.

His best music was in the 1970s.

No, R57. After the 70s, David Bowie kept on writing and singing great songs.

Modern Love, China Love, Let's Dance, Cat People (Putting Out Fire), Loving the Alien, This Is Not America, I'm Deranged, Absolute Beginners, As The World Falls Down, Underground, Up The Hill Backwards, Hallo Spaceboy, Survive, Slow Burn, Slip Away, Goodbye Mr. Ed, One Shot, Afraid, Buddha of Suburbia, Pallas Athena, Jump They Say, I Can't Read, Thursday's Child, Time Will Crawl, The Stars (Are Out Tonight), Dancing Out in Space, Valentine's Day, I Can't Give Everything Away, Blackstar- to mention a few...

David Bowie's music will always keep on getting discovered. He did so many different things.

R37, you're claiming I don't know my history and then support what I said by saying, yes, teen girls were married to older men for economic reasons. As I was saying.

You then make a pretty common mistake which is to assume everyone had short lives. Not true. The reason the *average* lifespan was short was because infant and childhood mortality was enormous. Also in play were high rates of maternal mortality--it's been estimated one in four mothers died in childbirth or shortly thereafter during the 1700s. If a woman survived her childhood and giving birth then she was likely to live a reasonable lifespan. The high rate of maternal mortality also meant a man might marry several wives before he had an heir who could survive to adulthood.

As for your other comment--well, the research on adolescent brains is pretty recent--certainly not around in the 1970s, so judging people's behavior in light of information not then available is dubious at the least. Even now, there are plenty of states where the age of consent is under 18, so no, the idea that sex between an adult male and a teen girl is inherently rape is questionable.

As far as the 20th Century goes--during the peak of the Baby Boom there was one year where a *third* of all brides were 18--and the men were over 21. Plenty of brides were younger--Loretta Lynn, of course, was famously married at 14/15 to a 21-year-old.

And, again--pedophila refers to a sexual attraction to pre-adolescents--who don't feel sexual desire or attraction. Not teens who, yes, often don't have good judgment, but are physically capable of feeling sexual desire.

R48, that is a complete shit and such propaganda bull shit you are cranking out. You and some others on this thread is trying to justify the guy having sex with a minor because he is one of your idols. And to say times were different back then on this subject and they less more is a complete put down. People knew back then that was wrong for an adult to have sex with someone who was a teenager or younger. When you are rich in famous regardless whether it was then or now, they can get away with almost anything because dirt is brushed under the rug for them thorough their PR people, mangers, and some delusional fans who won't accept what is the raw honest truth of the matter like yourself.

R59, Yes, that is true that the death rate of giving birth through the early stages of history was high, but disease,malnutrition, and lack of tools using technology in the medical world to understand and prevent illnesses which once was the kiss of death is now eradicated through medical and advanced medication. Sadly there are some very poor nations stuck in the past which the rest of the world has moved on when it comes to the subject of health and disease .

R60

I'm not R48, but I was around as a teen in the 70s and what R48 says is true. Were you there? It doesn't sound like it or you'd know that between the free love movement and the whole focus on youth meant that the groupie phenom was a thing and no one was filing statutory rape charges as a result. As I've said before, you can tell that it was tolerated because it wasn't hidden--Linda Blair lived openly with Rick Springfield. as did Melanie Griffith with Don Johnson. Yes, it was Hollywood, so it was on the edge of what was acceptable, but pedophilia was never close to acceptable at this time.

As for the death rate of the past, my point stands--teen girls were generally married to men several years older than them--nothing you're saying refutes this.

R59

I liked Bowie, but I've really been getting sick of every post on my newsfeed being another retrospective of him or self-indulgent post from people making his death all about them. I expected it for the first two days after his death. A week of it is getting to be overkill.

R63, when you die a grisly death in a grease fire, I will personally guarantee you TWO weeks of retrospectives and self-indulgent posts. How's that?

R63 I'm mad about people who are dressing up like him in selfies just to get likes. It's pathetic and disrespectful.

Well, O.K.. Proceed with your diatribe...we'll wait.

[quote] She was 15 and I doubt she was carded.

It was his responsibility to make sure she was of age, he obviously didn't care. And "everyone else was doing it" is a laughable defense. And yes, very poor singer, sounds like a mumbling zombie.

He's someone who committed statutory rape, whether you want to call it pedophilia or not.

OP l say this with all sincerity:

Blasphemy! You're a heretic!

WE ARE GONNA WALK THE STATIONS OF THE CROSS GURL!

r59, you said however, that it was "nature" for teen girls and older men to be together, rather than lack of opportunities. You also use arranged marriages as evidence of "nature." The only thing that could mean is that women had no choice in who they fucked. From my understanding of what the term itself means, men didn't either. Arranged marriages are not the best example of who someone is attracted to, I'd say affairs are better for that.

I don't really care about my genealogy in general but my friend was researching his family tree and I offered to help him organize it. Looking through hundreds (maybe thousands) of people in his family tree, the age of couples was generally very close. It was actually surprising to me. There were even older women in there. This happened in farming communities in northern Europe if it makes any difference. It would be pretty interesting if someone used some of the countries with good records to look into this in a broader way. Maybe his family were not representative of their communities in preferring people their own age.

Based on contemporary marriages it seems women prefer men their own age or a few years older.

Why are you on this site if you give a shit about teenage girls inherently wanting to fuck older men? If you're not a straight dude (or creepy straight woman) what about the historical male interest in teenage boys? You don't think that was creepy?

*about genealogy *was not

R70

Sigh--"his responsibility"--you still don't begin to have a grasp of what the early 70s rock and roll scene was like. And I didn't say "nature"--I said "norm". And it was--northern Europe is a pretty small percentage of the world's population--though the kind of marriage I described happened there as well as in India, China and Africa. Personally, one of my early American ancestors was married at 13 in New Amsterdam.

I get that you don't approve of the rock-star groupie scene of the 70s--but teen groupies were pretty much a thing--hardly unique to Bowie. Bowie was considered much more outrageous for his androgyny and publicly saying he was gay/bisexual. This was back when Elton John was pretending to be straight. Bowie's cocaine addiction was also pretty notorious, though also not unusual. He pretty much lived sex, drugs and rock and roll.

People didn't expect rock stars to be virtuous--the opposite really.

Oh "sigh" fuck you and your obsession with that lousy singer.

You don't have to scream to predict monsoons. Just saying.

Be elusive, but don't walk far!

Gaga = gum stuck to Bowie's shoe.

Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars (1972)

There would have been no Rocky Horror Show (1973) without Bowie.

The song structures and themes are beyond influences. They're dead on copies.

Does anyone know anything about his relationship with Klaus Nomi? It always seemed strange to me. I think I read that he helped get Nomi signed and that he also starred in one of his music videos.

David Bowie carried on a hot and heavy affair with Lester Piggot in the early 1980s.

The only two Bowie albums I like are “The Man Who Sold the World” and “Hunky Dory”. The rest just seems too forced/contrived.

Proust -big deal

He his was his generation's Bret Easton Ellis.

R78 that made me laugh. They've got to be the two most random names I've seen in one sentence.

David Bowie's career lasted a lot longer than Gaga's. Her career went off the tracks about the time Born This Way was released. The comparisons to Madonna are what killed her. People thought she was so unique and out of this world, so when they discovered she wasn't it really ruined her momentum and she has never quite recovered.

Luckily she has a good management team so she is able to book all those huge performances like the Oscars and Superbowl anyways. But she will certainly never be as huge as she was from 2009-2011 again. Not very much longevity at all.

I’ve always seen him as a mediocre talent who operated at the very edge of his ability. A lot of his songs like space oddity and ashes to ashes were ridiculous and overrated. He also didn’t like sharing the spotlight. For instance, when he and Mark Ronson started working together in Bowie’s band spider from mars, Bowie became jealous that Ronson was receiving as much attention as he was. For all his nice guy act he was ruthless and committed to becoming rich and famous.

He was a musical genius and has influenced countless musicians. While he may have had sex with some teenage girls, I don’t think you can call him a hebephile at all.

Link is astronaut Chris Hatfield singing Bowie in space. Bowie made sure that licensing was extended for the song to remain on YouTube and called it the most poignant version of his song.

He had a gorgeous voice and could croon surprisingly well. His list of hits is very very long and have been used in countless movies, commercials, etc. and are part of the fabric of humanity.

Well, he was a straight man, so it was and still is ok.

R85, actually David Bowie was bisexual, leaned more towards women but was lovers with Mick Jagger who is also bisexual, and being this type of bisexual does not make someone heterosexual/straight.

I look at it the same as I look at the Roy Moore stories.

So you think that rock stars from the 1960s through 1980s were perverts R87? Or that the groupies and prostitutes they got with who were underage were doing this just to get fame/attention?

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