I’ve been re-watching Will and Grace and am currently on the season where Grace meets Leo. I think it’s s4. Connick Jr. was pretty hot back then. It still holds up BUT there’s one thing that I CAN-NOT understand.

by Anonymousreply 92March 28, 2023 12:48 AM

If I’m correct, W&G decided to have a baby and spend the rest of their lives in a committed, PLATONIC relationship. Effectively, ending their pursuit of romantic partners? And Will got pissed because Grace backed out of such an idiotic, unrealistic agreement.

Who thought of this? It’s SO embarrassing.

by Anonymousreply 1February 23, 2022 1:36 PM

Harry was a fucking bore, just like his music. Not a funny bone in his body. Terrible stunt casting.

by Anonymousreply 2February 23, 2022 1:43 PM

This show should've been called Karen, Beverly Leslie & Zandra.

by Anonymousreply 3February 23, 2022 1:44 PM

I think this is around the time that the show's creators, David Kohan and Max Mutchnick, sued NBC for failing to negotiate a fair licensing fee when selling the show into syndication. They wrote one Season 4 episode but then didn't return until the (first) series finale in 2006.

by Anonymousreply 4February 23, 2022 1:58 PM

Let me tell you about Grace Adler......

by Anonymousreply 5February 23, 2022 2:18 PM

You ha to suspend belief (a *lot*) to have gotten threw entire run of W&G, especially if you were a gay man from or now living in NYC, or even any other large city with a substantial gay population/scene such as Boston, S.F. or whatever.

We were supposed to believe an attractive, successful, young white gay NYC lawyer living on UWS of Manhattan spent all his time with his frau BFF or mooching Mary of a friend, Jack.

OK, Will got dumped, so he spends next several years moaning about his ex, not really dating or having sex (that we know about), and whenever things start going well, something happens and Will breaks things off to be with Grace.

Finally Grace and Will confront their co-dependency and both start dating others seriously. At some point in all this some Frau friend from Will's past turns up and wants his sperm for her IVF kid. This drives Grace up the wall because as Karen points out she's always considered Will her "safety", that is if Grace never got a man, she and Will would somehow end up together.

Will finally gets himself a long term partner (the hot Italian NYC cop Vince D'Angelo), who proposes marriage. Will drops hot cop to be with Grace who is now pregnant with Leo's child, but her baby's daddy is MIA.

Know have things a bit muddled, but still... Much of W&G was a heterosexual (probably Frau) idea of what life as an attractive gay male just be like living in NYC. None of it made any sense

by Anonymousreply 6February 23, 2022 2:59 PM

I never watched the entire series when it was originally airing but have seen it all subsequently (not the revival/continuation one...yet) and they ended it really, really horribly.

Will and Grace were going to co-parent her baby but he realised she would never prioritise him in the way he would her, so they had a massive falling out and ended up estranged, he got back together with Vince and adopted, and then they didn't see each other again until their respective kids went to college and had dorm rooms opposite each other. It was such a disappointing ending! I have no idea how the re-quel series ended but I saw the first episode and they basically laughed off the ending of the original series and Grace was never pregnant and didn't have her daughter.

by Anonymousreply 7February 23, 2022 3:19 PM

Reboot was totally stupid, but they needed to come up with a way for W&G to get back together after ending on such bad terms.

Should have done a "Jack and Karen" spin off that included healthy doses of Beverley Leslie instead.

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by Anonymousreply 8February 23, 2022 4:03 PM

R6 is spot-on. It's primarily a show by straight women and for straight women. The gay men were just decoration, and added shock value in the late 90s.

Look up Jennifer Aniston's misguided film "The Object of My Affection." It's the same premise. A dumbass straight girl falls in love with her idealized gay BFF, and the bitch just can NOT understand why he doesn't want to spend his life with her or help her raise her accidental baby. It's a really sad, depraved concept - a woman falling so deeply in love with her ideal of a gay man that she believes she can change him or morph him into being her dream guy. But toss in a jazzy piano score and a few one-liners about showtunes, and you've got yourself a tentpole NBC sitcom!

by Anonymousreply 9February 23, 2022 4:08 PM

Sitcoms, of course, are usually awash with kitchen sink realism.

by Anonymousreply 10February 23, 2022 4:13 PM

[quote] Look up Jennifer Aniston's misguided film "The Object of My Affection."

Which was a book by Stephen McCauley. The screenplay for the book was written by Wendy Wasserstein, who had several parallel relationships in her life to what was shown in that movie, and ultimately on W&G - I'm pretty sure Grace Adler is based at least in part on Wendy.

by Anonymousreply 11February 23, 2022 4:31 PM

For mainstream network TV back then the show was ground-breaking but putting a baby plot into a show is almost never a good idea and a show killer. Hated the whole Will/Grace “desperate to have a baby” storyline. They even had Karen mooning over not having a baby at one point.

Ugh……

by Anonymousreply 12February 23, 2022 4:41 PM

Sadly the reboot was dumb and really didn't achieve much

It also poisoned my memory of Karen. She was an out for herself bitch but she never would have been a Trumper or been so focused on that. She just didn't want anything to interfere with her good time.

by Anonymousreply 13February 23, 2022 4:43 PM

Found it rather ironic that swishy Jack got more play than Will, well at least in early episodes. Later in series Frau writers finally started letting Will get some action, and not all of it was bad looking either.

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by Anonymousreply 14February 23, 2022 5:05 PM

But sometimes Will got his signals crossed.

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by Anonymousreply 15February 23, 2022 5:09 PM

Why did Jack always wear shapeless J Crew rejects? Baggy khakis, brown/green sweaters. Hayes had a decent body, and a swishy theater queen with muscles would *not* hide them under such terrible clothes. At least Will wore form-fitting shirts and pants.

by Anonymousreply 16February 23, 2022 5:11 PM

Hayes never had a decent body. He always had a layer of fat and not much in the way of muscles.

by Anonymousreply 17February 23, 2022 5:13 PM

Actually could see a real life "Will" and "Michael" together. Chris Potter is totally hot, and just the sort of type you'd expect Will to hook up with.

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by Anonymousreply 18February 23, 2022 5:14 PM

R18 He also played gay in season one of Queer as Folk. He was Michael's boring-but-steady Chiropractor boyfriend, whose jealousy of Brian was overshadowed only by the fact that he was simply too good and too advanced for a child like Michael.

by Anonymousreply 19February 23, 2022 5:17 PM

Jack had a pasty soft white Irish guy body for most if not entire series.

Think is like most NYC gays of a certain age Will and Jack went to gym often enough. Jack was always calling Will "fat", but IMHO it was other way round.

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by Anonymousreply 20February 23, 2022 5:19 PM

I think that may have been the point of the running joke, R20.

by Anonymousreply 23February 23, 2022 5:26 PM

If made today the Harry Conick Jr character would be bisexual and it could be a trouple.

by Anonymousreply 24February 23, 2022 5:26 PM

Will say one thing however, as series wore on Jack became slightly less nelly, and or at least could be counted upon to bring Will down to earth and see sense.

No, going by first appearances you think why would someone like Will Truman stay friends with a moocher, quasi loser like Jack. But deep down Jack isn't a "loser" at all, just Miss Ghurl has a different set of priorities, an earning enough money to support himself isn't top on that list.

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by Anonymousreply 25February 23, 2022 5:28 PM

R25 People like Will remain friends with people like Jack because they either A) Like to feel "needed," or B) Like to feel superior. It's an ego boost to have a loser friend who always asks for your help.

by Anonymousreply 26February 23, 2022 5:30 PM

R26

Oh I don't know... There may be some truth to what you've just said, but also have found the opposite.

Those sometimes kept at the margins of any society tend to often have a clearer view of things. Shat upon or just excluded means they often are left to sit and watch, and all that leads to learning a thing or two.

Jack basically repeated your reasoning R25, but it didn't change fact as end of episode showed Jack is a true friend who always has Will's back.

by Anonymousreply 27February 23, 2022 5:38 PM

R17 Nah, I remember Hayes actually being in great shape in the early seasons, but he intentionally wore baggy clothes to hide the fact.

by Anonymousreply 28February 24, 2022 10:25 AM

R17 Watch the episode where Jack and Will wake up together in bed on the yacht. Hayes was always slimmer and paler than McCormick but he was always in good shape.

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by Anonymousreply 29February 24, 2022 1:22 PM

R29

I don't think so... Notice "Will" wrapped a sheet around his waist but we could still see his mid-section is toned. OTOH "Jack" kept that duvet or whatever it was either clutched high over his chest (in bed), then hid behind thing after getting out. If Jack's body was at all rocking there wouldn't have been a need.

Will give you Jack's arms look more muscular than Will's however.

by Anonymousreply 30February 25, 2022 8:34 AM

I binged the series I think towards the end of its run and wrote reviews on Netflix (back when it still had Netflix Community).

I feel like it hit its stride somewhere around Season 3 and 4, but then quickly descended into banal celebrity cameos, and got really bad towards the end.

The apex of the series IMO was Fagmalion Parts 1 - 4 when Will takes on Karen's cousin Barry (played by Dan Futterman, the son from The Birdcage, and who is also an accomplished twice Oscar-nominated screenwriter) as a project and then falls in love with him (it had flashbacks, which were always great). There were still a few great episodes as the series went on every now and then, especially when seeds were planted early on and we finally got the payoff. For instance, when Mira Sorvino played Diane, "the only woman Will ever slept with." Besides the water bra episode, it was one of the few times Debra Messing really shined (again, IMO). Jack and Karen had grown to be insipid by that point, but they (and Chompers) were gold in this one episode. I found the chemistry of Jack and Karen (and "just Jack") overrated. I never liked the straight and gay couples who were friends with Will & Grace.

I loved Gay/December Romance with Hal Linden (aka Barney Miller). He absolutely killed it. They also used the same museum as the water bra episode haha. And, of course, Val (Molly Shannon) was ALWAYS a welcomed presence. They employed her so well and carefully over the course of the series.

I didn't really watch much of the reboot. I couldn't stand Messing by then thanks to social media. And, of course, I'm #TeamMeganMullally

by Anonymousreply 31February 25, 2022 8:48 AM

Joe and Larry were actually two gay characters based upon far more reality than much else on W&G

Two upscale white gays, former party animals now long term committed, house in the country, had a kid (adopted), and otherwise living a life Will Truman should have had.

by Anonymousreply 32February 25, 2022 9:17 AM

R29 Few men are thinner than McCormick. Hayes got muscles. Not porn start muscles but he has nice arms in that scene.

That's a funny scene. When it was funny, it was truly hysterical. HOWEVER, when it sucked...

by Anonymousreply 33February 25, 2022 10:11 AM

I loved W&G and was thrilled when it came back. However, it just didn't have the same magic as before .

The episode that jumped the shark for me was when a rich couple, who were also dog trainers or something related to dogs, mistakenly believed they were meeting Grace about adopting her unborn baby. But they were treating her like a dog, making her jump through hoops, run around, etc. It was insulting to the audience's intelligence.

by Anonymousreply 34February 25, 2022 4:18 PM

Will and Grace and Jack and Karen

by Anonymousreply 35February 25, 2022 4:49 PM

Methinks since so many sitcoms were being rebooted, W&G just jumped on that bandwagon. But as they say sometimes you can't go home again.

As stated above once decision to basically make much of final season not happen, was first mistake. It didn't work for Dallas that well either

by Anonymousreply 36February 25, 2022 6:08 PM

R1

Will has always been more attracted, attached, dependent or whatever on Grace than vice-versa.

Remember an early episode Grace moves to Brooklyn, on to have Will freak out, go out there and bring her back to live in his apartment. Oh and he threw Jack to the curb to make room for Grace.

Will told Grace he still wasn't over Michael, needed her close around, blah, blah, blah...

by Anonymousreply 37February 25, 2022 6:47 PM

[quote]I didn't really watch much of the reboot. I couldn't stand Messing by then thanks to social media. And, of course, I'm #TeamMeganMullally

Was it ever revealed why Deb and Meg had the big falling out?

by Anonymousreply 38February 25, 2022 8:52 PM

I don't like fruit-fly/fag-hag cartoon characters or the living versions of such creatures and I don't like gay cartoon characters unless they're engaged in the sort of sexual experiences that actual bodies would not be able to tolerate.

I also don't like bad writing, bad scripting, and the failure to recognize that Karen is the only good character but she was demeaned by being made to resemble a non-fat Suzanne Sugarbaker.

by Anonymousreply 39February 25, 2022 9:02 PM

I never did see this when it first came around, likely wont bother with the reboot. Would happily fuck Jack though - or Will. Or both

by Anonymousreply 40February 26, 2022 12:13 AM

R11

Wendy Wasserstein. Well that's a name with which to conjure.

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by Anonymousreply 41February 26, 2022 12:22 AM

I thought the reboot was so surreal. The third (and final) season of it was so good I can't understand why they didn't just keep going with it.

It's still the only sitcom I've watched in the past ten years.

by Anonymousreply 42February 26, 2022 12:23 AM

R18. When Chris Potter went from playing a detective on Silk Stalkings to Queer As Folk, he said he went from kicking ass to licking ass. Nicely put.

by Anonymousreply 43February 26, 2022 2:32 AM

Not so nicely put: “Soon as they say ‘cut,’ you spit. You want to go to a strip bar or touch the makeup girls. You feel dirty. It’s a tough job.”

That was the interview quote that got him jettisoned from the series and into a lucrative career making those The Good Witch made-for-TV movies on Hallmark. Couldn't have happened to a better guy.

by Anonymousreply 44February 26, 2022 3:08 AM

I loved the original show so much, its admitted weird plot paths discussed upthreat notwithstanding, that I tried loyally to follow all the reboot's new episodes. Yeah, the return was bad, but I don't blame it on the show premise or characters, for instance. I felt that NBC and the show producers from Day 1 planned and wanted to sabotage the show from ever running long and successfully as a reboot. It was stupid to debut it negating the entire original show's finale episode premise; staging the characters still living and working in the original show's locations and jobs (although, for continuity's sake for the interested original targeted audience's following them, I kind of get that); keeping the characters so one-dimensional and stereotypical, even more so than in the original show's run; not letting the characters develop or have developed new and different relationships in all those ensuing years; and seemingly starting to have some kind of obsession with focusing on Debra Messing's "Lucy Ricardo portrayal" interest and scripting episodes that seemed to revolve around "Lucy" humor, including the almost "verbatim" one of Grace and Karen becoming stuck in a shower à la Lucy Carmichael and Vivian Bagley.. Plot lines that went nowhere, stopped suddenly, and coupled with a new era where more commercials crammed in made the producers dissolve the show into little mini-segments full of back-and-forth camera shots seeming like all the characters in a scene weren't really all there in the same set filming them; and not to mention NBC appearing to want deliberately to "bury" the show by seeming to never air reruns between each new (much abbreviated) seasons. Then that 2nd finale which was an all-over-the-place trainwreck. Why would/did they do that to such an iconic show that deserved so much more? Also, I think the reason "W&G"'s reboot never seemed to be described as the next consecutive number season to the original show's finale's one, like other 2010s reboots did, might have been something in the main characters' contracts that if they did that and made the reboot basically an extension of the original show, possibly they would have demanded a lot more money than they each were already getting for revisiting their characters (?). In the end, I sense that neither they, the producers, nor NBC really wanted even to try to let the reboot become a potential second-time success that it could've been. :( I feel bad about that, b/c I feel that we all need a "Will & Grace" in our TV and pop-culture contemporary lives, even if for a once-weekly television primetime escape visit.

by Anonymousreply 45February 26, 2022 3:48 AM

"I felt that NBC and the show producers from Day 1 planned and wanted to sabotage the show from ever running long and successfully as a reboot."

Why the hell would they do that? Makes absolutely no sense.

by Anonymousreply 46February 26, 2022 4:38 AM

Problem with rebooting W&G was how show ended first time around. Will Truman and Grace Adler finally broke that odd co-dependence and went their separate ways. They married had children/raised families , and didn't really meet again until moving in day when (surprise, surprise), their children were on same dorm floor. Since Jack, Will and Grace all went to college together (IIRC), that could have been seen as start of "here we go again folks....".

What was ground breaking first time around with W&G was almost mundane by time of reboot. Same sex marriage was legal not just in NYS but entire country. What's more a wave of "equality" and "inclusion" seemingly swept over USA. If the premise of a gay and his fag hag seemed out of place first time around, it was worse for reboot.

But what could they do? I mean if suits wanted to keep things as "Will and Grace" the focus would have to be brought back to those central characters, and of course rest of ensemble (Jack and Karen).

Modern Family was already doing serious drama bit for LGBT, so to keep "W & G" a comedy there needs to be weekly situations that those whacky and zany group get up to.

Unless present from start (Family Ties, The Cosby Show, Married with Children, etc...) children tend to kill sitcoms. So Will and Grace would be better off without, unless you have a middle aged Will and Grace (along with their spouses) and the occasional appearance by one or both children. Since both were now young adults in college what would be the point anyway. Also adding two young adult children would grow the ensemble too large. Jack and Karen likely would have to go, but those characters generate quite a bit of action on W&G.

Personally think suits should have tried to hit one out of the park and did a new sitcom based upon Will Truman and his husband with maybe Jack and Karen (or one or two other new characters) to flesh out the ensemble cast.

by Anonymousreply 47February 26, 2022 5:46 AM

[quote]children tend to kill sitcoms

Good post R47. But, I'd argue that children are a desperate grasp to elongate series which have already passed their shelf life. Most decent sitcoms, particularly from the 80s/90s only really had 4 - 5 good years in them, outside of a few oddities.

Cheers would be one example. When Shelley Long departed, she basically did the show a favour by giving it the opportunity to reinvent itself with a new primary dynamic. Besides being a brunette, Rebecca Howe's desire to appear professional and complete disinterest in Sam Malone (at least at first, which was subsequently accentuated by her emotional codependence on Robin Colcord) was the spark that gave it so many more solid seasons. But, even then, they had a storyline where Sam and Rebecca contemplated becoming parents with each other a season or two before the show went off-the-air.

Frasier would be another example and IMO would be the genuine aberration in the sit-com world during this era. They avoided children becoming part of the regular fabric, but they also had strong writers who really kept the series fresh and interesting well passed the 4-to-6-year mark.

[quote]Personally think suits should have tried to hit one out of the park and did a new sitcom based upon Will Truman and his husband with maybe Jack and Karen (or one or two other new characters) to flesh out the ensemble cast.

Interesting idea, which would have been a callback to Cheers if they had completely dumped Grace. It might have worked as well, but Will was just so vanilla. He was no Sam, Diane, or Rebecca. Grace was even more of a firecracker. But, of course, there would be no show without Will.

by Anonymousreply 48February 26, 2022 6:40 AM

The only thing about the reboot I liked was the little shrimp who came out to be Jack's boyfriend.

by Anonymousreply 49February 26, 2022 7:33 AM

^ The Spanish guy? I totally loved him!

by Anonymousreply 50February 26, 2022 9:26 AM

R16 I always wondered about this too. He was seen as the "hip" one but he always dressed like middle management. And the nitpicking over Hayes' body is, well, to be expected -- this being a gay forum and all -- but the bottom line is he could've wore more flattering clothes. His wardrobe aged him up at least ten years.

by Anonymousreply 51February 26, 2022 10:36 AM

I think one of the funnier episodes was in the second or third season (?) when they were stuck at an airport, and Karen met the poor dumb blond girl who just didn't get that her boyfriend's gay. They juxtapositioned it with how Grace dealt with finding out Will's gay, and after ALL of that, the bitch STILL didn't get it.

That was brilliant on so many levels. Will meets Jack, and we see how and why this lazy piece of crap is so important to him. Will's acceptance of his sexuality. Karen meeting Rosario, AND we learned that she's the reason Martina figured out that she's a lez.

I think of that Karen scene every time I hear the Power Station. So many good episodes.

by Anonymousreply 52February 26, 2022 10:40 AM

First two seasons were the best. Personally, I think something happened when they moved to Thursdays in the third season. Part of it is they got more mainstream. Can't put my finger on the other part.

Rewatching during the pandemic, I discovered I cannot stand Grace, original or reboot. She is just too pathetic and whiny. I had always thought that in the reboot Messing seemed like she was walking through for the paycheck (which would make sense considering her rep and track record). I found season six where she's gone a lot to be the better of the later seasons, although I think that's when they fired the creators, so maybe that helped too?

In hindsight, I think it was a mistake for them to come back. It was good at first, but things had changed too much in the world they couldn't keep up with, and they got lazy quickly with the storylines and guest spots. And then it seems that all the old behind-the-scenes drama boiled over. I feel they ruined their legacy a bit. Really sad.

by Anonymousreply 53February 26, 2022 10:42 AM

Forgot to post it. I could watch this...a lot.

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by Anonymousreply 54February 26, 2022 10:45 AM

R53 They were actually in a bar. "Tom's queer, dear."

by Anonymousreply 55February 26, 2022 11:21 AM

You guys were correct, Jack was thinner and rocking different sort of vibe in pilot episode.

Will OTOH should have been lined up and shot for that haircut alone.

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by Anonymousreply 56February 26, 2022 12:53 PM

Again typical frau fantasy about gay men. Will cannot bare to lose his BFF that he goes out to Brooklyn, admits his dependence on Grace, and drags her back to Manhattan.

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by Anonymousreply 57February 26, 2022 12:58 PM

Estefan with his "Googie Gomez" accent got on my nerves.

Why did writers of W&G always go with tired clichés and stereotypes of various gay men.

P.S.

You can clearly see Jack as bit of a paunch. No, he's not "three months showing...", but not washboard abs either. Again soft and spongy.... Guess that's what happens when you start making eff tons of money.

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by Anonymousreply 58February 26, 2022 1:07 PM

Slolomo - Slowly Turning Into A Lonely Mo!

Who knew there was an exact word to describe 85% of DL....

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by Anonymousreply 59February 26, 2022 1:14 PM

I hated the original runs ending so I pretend the whole last season doesn’t exist. The new reboot had potential , except the continued political shite got boring, but it was evident towards the end that tensions were rising between Debra and Meghan because they weren’t on screen together like they should’ve been. It was quite sad TBH since they all embody those characters so perfectly and play off each other the same. I loathe Alec Baldwin but he was perfectly cast in this new reboot.

by Anonymousreply 60February 26, 2022 1:17 PM

The episode in the reboot where the plot hinges on Grace taking a toilet clogging deuce should be enough to ensure that the entire series is forever scrubbed from the face of the earth. And Estefan Gloria? My God, how they must have laughed when they thought of that name! Modern day Noel Cowards.

by Anonymousreply 61February 26, 2022 1:53 PM

For that kind of money I'd join hands and sing kum-ba-yah every day. Fools. But I think Meghan always thought the show should be called "Jack & Karen".

by Anonymousreply 62February 26, 2022 5:10 PM

This thread is keeping me sane in these stressful times 🤣

by Anonymousreply 63February 27, 2022 12:49 AM

the Grace-Karen toilet episode was abysmal but that bakery episode was even more offensive because its plot (baker refuses to make Karen a MAGA cake) referenced an actual court case (Colorado baker refusing to make cake for same-sex wedding) while seeming to come down on the side of the homophobic baker.

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by Anonymousreply 64February 27, 2022 1:19 AM

In the first episode or two, Karen was different. She didn’t yet have the funny voice and she seemed more like a bored Upper East Side housewife who just needed something to do.

by Anonymousreply 65February 27, 2022 1:40 AM

R62

With any sitcom there is always a chance one or more of original ensemble cast will become a break away "star". At beginning of "The Big Bang Theory" Sheldon was just a sort of gangly aspie nerd sort, but his character grew to point it wasn't (or wouldn't) be much of a show without. Sheldon got a spin off, and when Jim Parsons said "bye-bye" TBBT folded.

Jack and Karen were starting by middle of W&G run to becoming far more interesting than Will and Grace (gee, can't imagine why...). It does seem at some point writers decided to pull Jack and Karen back a bit and focus more on Will and Grace. This and a constant stream of famous guest stars appeared each week.

Problem with W&G was by middle of things that fag and his hag were boring as fuck. It was some sort of aborted love story that never was going to happen. Not for want of writers trying, Will finally finds love (in form of a hot Italian-American LE officer), who he promptly dumps to go off to play daddy to Grace's baby. Yeah, in what world does that really happen?

Gays were increasingly writing off W&G, but straights (especially fraus) were lapping it all up. Just like many straight men believe only thing wrong with a lesbian is she hasn't had the right dick (his), far too many fraus believe a gay man just hasn't found the right woman, and she's the broad that can get that job done.

There were only a few ways for Will and Grace to eventually go as "friends".

First was as with that other frau and her gay that were once tight as W&G, but when Grace meets her in a coffee shop that frau says they drifted apart.

Other was for W&G to get together in some sort of bizarre marriage (it's been known to happen in real life).

Or finally they have a nasty and bitter break-up which pretty much ends a relationship that ran its course long ago.

Irony is that it was Grace contrary to what most have thought all through series who rejects Will's idea of shacking up. Turns out she's made the sensible decision of not wanting some gay guy (no matter how close) as a husband who choses her for all the wrong reasons.

Latter is why reboot had to happen way it did; basically pretending final season or two just didn't happen. Otherwise there would have been no easy way to bring W&G back together.

by Anonymousreply 66February 27, 2022 2:31 AM

Loved the episodes with Debbie Reynolds as Grace's mom.

by Anonymousreply 67February 27, 2022 7:14 PM

Jack and Karen were the only reasons to watch the show. Grace was frankly an extremely annoying character. Will was bland but had some good lines. The cameos I rather enjoyed .

by Anonymousreply 68February 27, 2022 7:27 PM

R59 That short guy was cute but how he could he gel anything but comedy roles in the business?

by Anonymousreply 69February 27, 2022 9:45 PM

The only thing I ever laughed at in the show was Karen.

by Anonymousreply 70February 27, 2022 9:47 PM

There was one later episode where Karen broke her ankle that made me lmao because she had her mobility scooter rigged up with a champagne cooler on the front instead of a basket. It reminded me of my own mother who loves her champagne. I even called her and said "mom, you have to see this". She laughed too.

by Anonymousreply 71February 27, 2022 9:52 PM

[quote]Jack meeting Cher.

I loved that.

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by Anonymousreply 73February 27, 2022 11:29 PM

Not sure Matt Bomer was a realistic match for Will but he was entertaining in the reboot. In "Will and Grace Tell a Lie" Grace's bf Schwimmer ends up in bed with Will's bf Bomer. This clip stops before that moment but still captures the actors at the top of their game and the character-driven elements that made it memorable.

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by Anonymousreply 74February 28, 2022 2:26 AM

^^ "Conscious Coupling" (S10E16)

by Anonymousreply 75February 28, 2022 2:45 AM

One of Grace's most annoying episodes was when her mother fixes Will up with "Woodchuck" guy.

Turns out guy is hot, and Will finally looks like he might be getting some. What does Grace do? Every fucking moment Wil is alone or about the meet the guy she pops up dogging is every move. I mean who acts like that?

by Anonymousreply 76February 28, 2022 9:32 AM

R76 Characters in sitcoms?

by Anonymousreply 77February 28, 2022 9:35 AM

The rotating door of guest stars got tedious.

by Anonymousreply 78February 28, 2022 9:57 AM

R76 any episode with Bobbi Adler was great, and they actually played off each other perfectly. That was great casting.

by Anonymousreply 79February 28, 2022 10:01 AM

R69

Actor's name is Ryan Pinkston. He does get work, but as you might imagine being height challenged means there is often a limited range of roles.

Starting out as a young child actor Ryan Pinkston was cute in a sort of way, but alas he grew up, but his height really didn't.

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by Anonymousreply 80March 2, 2022 2:38 AM

When Eric McCormack showed in the pilot with a mullet you knew it wasn’t going to be anything like real gay life

by Anonymousreply 81March 2, 2022 2:43 AM

R73 THAT was funny. That's how they should've used non-comedic celebrities. One scene and that's a wrap.

The comedic actors were always great. Molly Shannon, Sandy Bernhard, Parker Posey.

OKAY. I'm posting some favorites...ish

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by Anonymousreply 83March 2, 2022 1:24 PM

I'm convinced we have herds of straight women invading gay bars these days because the young ones growing up with Will and Grace, convinced you have to have a female BFF in tow at all times

by Anonymousreply 85March 2, 2022 1:57 PM

Fraus of all ages were invading gay bars long before W&G. Places had very difficult time keeping them out even with things like "no open toe shoe" bans.

Some parties like Beige of course by nature a mix crowd, but places like even Splash started to become lousy with fraus and or trans.

IMHO rot started around middle to late 1990's as internet became more common, thus more and more gays were staying home and hooking up online. Instead of going out to a bar or someplace, people were going onto AOL and other chats. That left a void in some places so fraus and their money were welcome I suppose.

Also think there was a bit of backlash in certain circles. I mean gays fighting for equality, but keeping fraus, trans, drag queens out, and or otherwise trying to preserve male only spaces.

by Anonymousreply 86March 2, 2022 2:17 PM

r85 Women MUST be in ALL places. You fags don't get your little spaces anymore!

by Anonymousreply 87March 3, 2022 4:31 AM

Being as all that may, fraus in many cases are all that are keeping some gay bars open.

Tool Box on UES in Manhattan NYC likely would have closed years ago if not for steady influx of fraus. Brandy's piano bar has lasted years, meanwhile that gay sports part on UES (Boxers) barely survived a year.

For gays that must have male only places there are still circuit and other such events worldwide that are largely if not exclusively male.

by Anonymousreply 88March 3, 2022 2:13 PM

R88 Most DLers are well past the age where circuit parties are a comfortable experience.

by Anonymousreply 89March 3, 2022 2:17 PM

I'm rewatching it now too. Is it true all of the women, including Rosario, all hated one another

by Anonymousreply 90March 28, 2023 12:09 AM

[quote] quickly descended into banal celebrity cameos

We reject your premise

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by Anonymousreply 91March 28, 2023 12:28 AM

R65, In the earliest episodes of “AITF”, Jean Stapleton did not yet have the “Edith voice”.

by Anonymousreply 92March 28, 2023 12:48 AM

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